Author Topic: Improving Saint Seiya  (Read 7400 times)

Rask

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Improving Saint Seiya
« on: May 29, 2015, 12:53:27 AM »
Thanks to Raiden's topic about lack of activity and Tuhis' comment about posting headcanons/etc I decided to open this thread I've been think about lately.

So, pretend a remake of the classic series will be made and somehow you have the power to help rewritting it, what would you change/add/get rid of to make the series better in your eyes? You can officialize anything, it doesn't matter if it's headcanon, stuff from the spin-offs of a mix of both. Just to avoid sidetracking, ND and the anime fillers would count as spin-off.
Also coment on other people's ideas if possible. This is a discussion forum after all.

Here go my ideas:

First off, I would make everyone older. The Bronze5+Saory being 17~21, the Golds being 40~50, Saga 60~70. Maybe Aiolia/Afrodite/DM could the youngest (26~32), being sanctified at some point after Saga's Coup.  

The first fight between Shaina and Seiya is actually Marin's idea, because she knows her pupil learns faster when the situation seems dire.
I would skip the Galaxian Wars and the Black Saints, making Ikki attack Saori's mansion alone. IMO Phoenix is one of the special/forgotten cloths that don't fit the B/S/G division and is closer to Silver in power than to Bronze.

After this the series would go mostly normal until the 12 Temples Battle. Fight against Algol is changed so Shiryu doesn't get blind (Its cooler if he just get blind for good during Poseidon), some dialog/flashback witch Camus and Hyoga for character development. Maybe a dialog involving Aiolia, Mu and Dohko about how the current Pope isn't the real one.

The 12 Temples I kinda like the way LoS works, where the Golds survive and the Bronze5 are mostly defeated by the 9th temple, but I also love the Seiya+Ikki vs Saga in the Pope's Hall. Maybe it could work with everything the way it is supposed to until Virgo. Then Camus is guarding Libra, waiting for Hyoga, where they fight for real (no frozen Hyoga). Milo could be on a mission or something, so Shura and Afrodite can beat the living shit out of Shiryu and Shun, respectively(they would probably advance a few temples, like Camus did). Right before they could kill the bronzies, Milo arrives and stops them and explain what is really going on. On the way up she (yes, i liked this in LoS) talked with the other Golds and learned the truth about Saori. Most fights in this arc start before the previous finishes, so Seiya and Ikki already passed the 12 temples and are fighting Saga in the Pope's Hall.

The Arcs finishes nearly the same way it does in the manga: the GE sent Ikki flying god knows where, Seiya purges Saga's 2nd personality and passes out, Saga's normal personality commits suicide and everything is well.

In the original Saga 2nd personality is just evil and wants to take over the world. It would be more interesting if it was a side of Saga that became SUPER extremist and disagreed with Shion's management towards the impending war against Hades. As a Pope this worry and the lack of Athena prompted him to "propose" that all Saints should take pupils to boost numbers for the war. It works as a nice explanation how an order so restrict would accept ~100 orphans out of the blue and get a 10% success rate on the training. Of course with this scenario Saga wouldn't try to kill Athena, and Aiolos just took her because he found out about Shion's death.

I have a few Ideas about what coud be changed in Poseidon and Hades but they aren't nearly as flashed out.

Looking foward to see what you guys would change.

Edit: Improved title

SageofTime

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2015, 09:40:34 AM »
I think the characters and story in Saint Seiya are fine just the way they are. But if I were to change something I would probably make the Bronze saints and Saori into their late teens and the gold saints into their late 20's and early 30's and I notice there isn't a lot of female characters so I would probably add more bronze and silver saints that are female. I don't like the gender bend idea because it is uncessary even though I find a couple of characters that aren't on the masculine side like Shun and Aphordite because it would be weird to see them as girls and I am pissed off with Toei making a handsome gold saint into a girl in the movie  >:(. I would add slapstick humor to the series because I know a lot of other Shonen has that and more character development.

Paradox

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2015, 10:33:30 AM »
I think the characters and story in Saint Seiya are fine just the way they are. But if I were to change something I would probably make the Bronze saints and Saori into their late teens and the gold saints into their late 20's and early 30's a
that really would not appeal the Japanese crowds. Adult Japanese men are nearly paedophile like in their taste of women. it is a sick country and if you look at some anime outside of saint seiya you get horrified

Hallwill

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2015, 10:58:14 AM »
First off, I would make everyone older. The Bronze5+Saory being 17~21, the Golds being 40~50, Saga 60~70. Maybe Aiolia/Afrodite/DM could the youngest (26~32)
that really would not appeal the Japanese crowds. Adult Japanese men are nearly paedophile like in their taste of women. it is a sick country and if you look at some anime outside of saint seiya you get horrified

I'd make them older too, and what you say, Paradox, explains why they are too young... And I innocently thought that it was because the readership of the manga was meant to be young teens, so to help them identify to the characters, they have to be as old (or rather young) as the readers...

I would not change much, especially not the characters's gender. But it would be nice to had some hints to their "family life" (if they're married, have any children, or anything else).
I'd add some flashback including Isaac when Camus and Hyoga find themselves fighting each other, stating that Isaac is dead and showing his face (so as to prepare his appearence in the Poseidon Arc).
And I'd add more elements about Saga's evil personality, I remember reading the dagger he wanted to use to kill Athena came from the spectres (in the Hades chapter, when Rhadamanthys talks to Zelos), so in the Hades Arc it could be explain in depth.

And I would keep the blood gushing out of their wounds ! Because I haven't seen much in the few episodes I saw of Omega and not in Soul of Gold either... (yes, I like Milo vs Hyoga  :milo:)
:seiya: " Allô Shiryu, c'est toi ?"
:shiryu: " Tu viens de composer mon numéro bourrique ! Qui tu veux que se soit !"

Soyukamaru

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #4 on: May 29, 2015, 11:01:54 AM »
@Paradox Really? But Saori in the manga or anime hardly looks like a 13 year old.
The way she dresses, her body proportions, the way she talks etc.
She looks at least 16-17. Technically, she's still underage.

But I have to agree though, all those loli stuff makes me cringe.
Perhaps is it because many Asians look younger than their real age?
Many people here in their 30s can pass for a high school student.
Many HS students look like middle school students etc.
I remember going to Florida solo when I was young(er), TSA guy stopped me.
He asked me where my parents were and why I was all alone.
I told him I was 22 and he asked for my ID  :-_-U:

I agree with SageofTime, make the bronzes and Saori to be late teens.
And the Goldies in their 20s-30s, that way they would be in their prime.
I just can't imagine Saga as a 50 year old  :o

@Hallwill Yessss, keep the blood going.
This is not meant to be PG rated.

SageofTime

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2015, 12:05:32 PM »
the Golds being 40~50, Saga 60~70.
That is way too old and I can't imagine Saga being that age and I don't think he would be bad@$$ as he is now

tuhis

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #6 on: May 29, 2015, 12:18:23 PM »
Saga at 60 would be... the "lawful evil" kinda guy, aged like fine wine, in a tailored suit. The politician sort of criminal. A figure of great authority. And I've as well thought that as the "evil Pope" leader he'd be more... a supporter of traditional values, opposed to Shion's perhaps progressive development. (It's something I've headcanoned quite a bit about. Shion wanting to keep Sanctuary and the whole institution's rules up to speed with times, but does not dare put things such as abolishing the law of the mask into action. He's waiting for the goddess to reincarnate and either approve or deny the laws upheld in Her name, but is murdered before he can.)
F***ing hell, he'd be one sexy devil tho.

He'd certainly be badass. A different tone of badass, but certainly badass. His cosmo wouldn't be the slightest bit weaker either.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 12:48:02 AM by tuhis »

Soyukamaru

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #7 on: May 29, 2015, 12:23:21 PM »
I imagine Saga at 60 would be like Tywin Lannister in a pinstripe suit.
If you watched Dracula Untold, there is a scene with him in a nice suit at the finale.
Man, he looked so charismatic.

Hallwill

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2015, 12:45:35 AM »
@Hallwill Yessss, keep the blood going.
This is not meant to be PG rated.

And considering some techniques (such as Scarlet Needle, Excalibur), they HAVE to bleed !

Perhaps is it because many Asians look younger than their real age?
Many people here in their 30s can pass for a high school student.
Many HS students look like middle school students etc.

But in StS case, that would be the other way around then, the Bronze 5 and Saori looking older than they really are. Actually for the Bronze 5, that would make sense, considering the hardship they have to face (there's a saying that tough experience in life makes you look older).
:seiya: " Allô Shiryu, c'est toi ?"
:shiryu: " Tu viens de composer mon numéro bourrique ! Qui tu veux que se soit !"

Paradox

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2015, 05:04:43 AM »
I really would like some episodes with silver saints as protagonists. it would be nice to see a saint seiya  in the future with the fab five training the next generation of saints.... Omega does not qualify for the purpose.


one thing I hate about Toei, is that they need to upgrade everytime the saints power. having a power upgrade is not required to put up decent fights and a  good story

Raiden [雷電]

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #10 on: June 02, 2015, 05:18:13 PM »
...I'd remove Kurumada from in charge. I love how people keep yelling at Toei about screwing up the series, when it's in fact Kurumada's own fault that everything went to shit.

HE was the one who fired Ryo Horikawa from Shun's role and caused Furuya (Seiya) and the other three to resign as a form of protest. ...And then he went and hired Masakazu Morita and co. and got another studio to do the Inferno and Elysium arc's animation. If he hadn't butted in, Inferno and Elysium could still have retained Furuya and co. in their roles and maybe even FINISHED THE SERIES before Hirotaka Suzuoki died.

I'd wager Furuya agreed to play Seiya in Omega because Kurumada had nothing to do with it. After all, Kurumada was the reason the original Bronze Saint gang disbanded - he was about to split them apart and get a "new Shun", and they didn't want a new Shun.

See the irony in this? The fandom wants the old gang to get together - Furuya, Hashimoto, Horikawa, Hori. Kurumada doesn't. (In b4 Next Dimension gets animated and Kurumada decides to shaft Ryo Horikawa like he always intended.)



Mewzard

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2015, 06:15:08 PM »
...I'd remove Kurumada from in charge. I love how people keep yelling at Toei about screwing up the series, when it's in fact Kurumada's own fault that everything went to shit.

HE was the one who fired Ryo Horikawa from Shun's role and caused Furuya (Seiya) and the other three to resign as a form of protest. ...And then he went and hired Masakazu Morita and co. and got another studio to do the Inferno and Elysium arc's animation. If he hadn't butted in, Inferno and Elysium could still have retained Furuya and co. in their roles and maybe even FINISHED THE SERIES before Hirotaka Suzuoki died.

I'd wager Furuya agreed to play Seiya in Omega because Kurumada had nothing to do with it. After all, Kurumada was the reason the original Bronze Saint gang disbanded - he was about to split them apart and get a "new Shun", and they didn't want a new Shun.

See the irony in this? The fandom wants the old gang to get together - Furuya, Hashimoto, Horikawa, Hori. Kurumada doesn't. (In b4 Next Dimension gets animated and Kurumada decides to shaft Ryo Horikawa like he always intended.)

I'm of the exact opposite spectrum. I'd remove Toei from the franchise entirely. Toei is frankly far too cheap given how much money they tend to make. We need some new blood if we're going to reanimate the original series. I doubt Studio Bones made a fraction of the money Dragon Ball or Saint Seiya did with Fullmetal Alchemist, but they still completely redid the series with Brotherhood and made something that was genuinely good.

Toei's filler writing was down right atrocious at times, and their animation quality's gone down in recent years. Also, you want to talk replacements, Toei's all but cut ties with Hironobu Kageyama in the last ten years. They use him for none of the shows he did music for them for, despite him doing Dragon Ball, Saint Seiya, several Super Sentai themes...

And who knows, maybe the voice change wouldn't have even happened if he wasn't pissed off with how Tenkai-Hen went. I'm pretty sure the whole reason we got more manga beyond Episode G was because of what happened with that, and that happened before the voice changing.

Didn't like the voices being changed, as the voices and music were my favorite part of the old anime (I have a lot of complaints about old Toei, but they tend to be on the animation and writing side, their music and voice work tends to be excellent), but there's nothing that can be done about that now (unless Toei wants to hire them back). Honestly though, you can start to really hear Horikawa's voice changing compared to the days of old after all of that smoking. Furuya's voice seems to be one of the ones that has gone through the least changes that I've noticed over the years (I swear his voice may have eternal youth).

Raiden [雷電]

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2015, 07:30:46 PM »
...I don't think Horikawa's voice has changed all that much? He played Natsu Tanimoto in History's Strongest Disciple back in 2006-2007 (and again in 2012-2014) and Tanimoto's "perfect student" side sounded exactly like Shun. (Kurumada's choice for Inferno/Elysium Shun also sucked. I can't even remember what he sounded like.) When you think of voices changing thanks to smoking, Nozomu Sasaki takes the cake. He originally sounded like such a cute kid (even back in B'tX), and then he smoked and now he sounds like an evil old man. His current voice scares me...

I actually love the slight changes in Toru Furuya's voice. He sounds slightly older now, but just enough to make Seiya sound mature - and his Sabo in One Piece is making my heart hurt by being so awesome and amazingly emotional.

Mm... Toei's animation quality has gone down? I think One Piece still looks really good. In fact, I prefer the new art to the old style from the early arcs (Ace looked like crap in the Alabasta arc fillers... the Marineford arc made him look so good).

PS. ...I just checked Hironobu Kageyama and now I'm torn. I kinda want to see Saint Seiya animated by Xebec. Because their Uchuu Senkan Yamato 2199 looks amazing. Though Asahi Production or Sunrise could also work. 'k, I got six studios I'd love to see work on Saint Seiya now: Xebec, Asahi Production, Sunrise, Kyoto Animation, Production I.G and ufotable. Nothing else. Studio DEEN is out of the question, they screwed up Ginga Densetsu Weed so badly it isn't funny. I don't want to see them screwing up SS, too. http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbnz0e4GJ31rexna3o1_1280.jpg <--- This. Never DEEN. Never, ever DEEN. Anything.

So I guess now I'd love to see several Saint Seiya series - both canon and spin-off - done by one of the studios I mentioned, WITHOUT interference from Kurumada. Because his choices suck.



Mewzard

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2015, 07:49:56 PM »
...I don't think Horikawa's voice has changed all that much? He played Natsu Tanimoto in History's Strongest Disciple back in 2006-2007 (and again in 2012-2014) and Tanimoto's "perfect student" side sounded exactly like Shun. (Kurumada's choice for Inferno/Elysium Shun also sucked. I can't even remember what he sounded like.) When you think of voices changing thanks to smoking, Nozomu Sasaki takes the cake. He originally sounded like such a cute kid (even back in B'tX), and then he smoked and now he sounds like an evil old man. His current voice scares me...

I actually love the slight changes in Toru Furuya's voice. He sounds slightly older now, but just enough to make Seiya sound mature - and his Sabo in One Piece is making my heart hurt by being so awesome and amazingly emotional.

Mm... Toei's animation quality has gone down? I think One Piece still looks really good. In fact, I prefer the new art to the old style from the early arcs (Ace looked like crap in the Alabasta arc fillers... the Marineford arc made him look so good).

PS. ...I just checked Hironobu Kageyama and now I'm torn. I kinda want to see Saint Seiya animated by Xebec. Because their Uchuu Senkan Yamato 2199 looks amazing. Though Asahi Production or Sunrise could also work. 'k, I got six studios I'd love to see work on Saint Seiya now: Xebec, Asahi Production, Sunrise, Kyoto Animation, Production I.G and ufotable. Nothing else. Studio DEEN is out of the question, they screwed up Ginga Densetsu Weed so badly it isn't funny. I don't want to see them screwing up SS, too. http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mbnz0e4GJ31rexna3o1_1280.jpg <--- This. Never DEEN. Never, ever DEEN. Anything.

So I guess now I'd love to see several Saint Seiya series - both canon and spin-off - done by one of the studios I mentioned, WITHOUT interference from Kurumada. Because his choices suck.

Huh, a lot of people watching Dragon Ball Kai compared to Z thought his voice changed noticeably.

I can't tell if that's actual aging in Furuya's voice or he just slightly altered it for the character's age, and that's a good thing I say.

I'd argue Toei's animation has been hit or miss for years, but looking at the last season of Digimon, their "reanimations" in Kai, and some of their untested material, it's just sad. I can see One Piece getting the good animation since it's their big thing right now in Japan, but the smaller stuff can suffer. Omega had some good moments, but also some fairly bad ones animation wise (Toei censoring Toriko and adding some poor choice filler were just some of the flaws of that anime, which is a shame, as it's one of my favorite manga, and seeing an anime die is seldom fun).

Sunrise is an interesting thought after watching S-Cry-Ed.

Kurumada's choices are:

A. Why the original series existed in the first place, and why it made it as far as it did.

B. Why the franchise came back at all when Toei and Shueisha left it for dead and cancelled both the manga and anime (Toei's bad decisions with the filler Asgard Arc,stripping the budget, and changing both series director and writer are why the ratings crashed).

C. Why the spin-offs happened at all, and with the creators you may like (Kuru clearly wasn't satisfied with how things ended, hence why we got stuff like Episode G and him trying to get the story continued via Tenkai-Hen, and eventually coming back to manga, and at the same time having Shiori do her own thing).

I'd say his choices tend to be good for the most part. A bad choice here or there doesn't negate all the good ones. None of the spin-off manga would have happened without Kurumada's end doing it (Shueisha certainly isn't involved), even if he didn't like the end result, nor would Tenkai-Hen have existed without him trying to continue his story.

SageofTime

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Re: Improving Saint Seiya
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2015, 08:18:43 PM »
I think another way of improving Saint Seiya is maybe having a reboot but have it follow the manga not a whole filler arc or steel saints or whatever other saints that don't exist in the manga. But the one problem is that there isn't a lot of character development so they should proubably add some.I knew that LoS what meant to be a reboot but that was a really stupid idea why do a whole movie on a arc that took 70 something episodes and made the characters and settings into something that is like a Power Ranger/Transformer/Sci-fi mash up. For 1 that is confusing to people who want to learn more about the series and 2 I think the people who did this movie were smoking something because the movie was so bad.