Author Topic: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this  (Read 5894 times)

footloose

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2015, 08:09:09 AM »
Sorry to ruin the party but I was wondering if anyone has a theory on this...i posted it above but seems like it got skipped
Actually, there is one other thing we have not discussed (I think).

Fafner captured and experimented on villagers in ep. 2. I suppose Asgardians know he is working for Andreas, so why didn't they say anything about it or become at least suspicious of the much beloved Andreas?

aimc

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2015, 08:53:00 AM »
Sorry to ruin the party but I was wondering if anyone has a theory on this...i posted it above but seems like it got skipped

I don't know about manga and anime, but in real life, numerous scientific experiments have been carried out that were atrocities and were anyway hidden from public knowledge.

Or maybe the village was too far away for other nearby villages to aknowledge those experiments existance.

Another possibility is that Fafner was given secretly permission from Andreas to perform those tests. So the villagers captured think that Fafner was the bad experimenter but don't have anything against Andreas.

Maybe even Andreas don't know about this (highly improbable).

Also what makes you think that Andreas is the bad guy?

footloose

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2015, 09:14:29 AM »
Also what makes you think that Andreas is the bad guy?
interesting question. U think Lyfia (or whoever is inside her) is the puppet master?

Seiya

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2015, 11:19:37 AM »
interesting question. U think Lyfia (or whoever is inside her) is the puppet master?

That's exactly what I think, I like the odds. Besides he has yet to appear, only by what Lyfia has told Aioria. There is still no evidence that Andreas is the bad guy. The reaction of the Asgardian soldiers about Lyfia...intrigued me.

It's not the first time that there is one bad God Warrior (Alberich), so Fafner could be the one. Frodi, Surt and Sigmund look like good guys. Of course I could be wrong but like I said in another thread Lyfia makes "friendship" with the Gold Saints so that they will take down Andreas and the God Warriors for her and then makes her big move.

Again it could be just the way it is and I am just seeing things. :P

footloose

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2015, 04:45:26 PM »
If Lyfia is pulling a Sea Dragon Kanon in Poseidon, then Camus actually fights for the right side. How intriguing.

This is getting interesting. And please please let everyone be right and the mysterious god warrior is Kanon. He deserves to be revived!!!

Seiya

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2015, 12:48:54 AM »
Well now that I have seen Andreas in action, can't say he is a good person but I still can't shake the feeling that Lyfia is up to something...bad.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2015, 07:10:37 AM by Seiya »

Niello

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2015, 06:53:23 AM »
Ok, but remember that he (canon story) escaped both Saga and Shura , and later was defeated by Shura.

My point is, would Mu with his 7 or 8 years old, had saved Athena at that time? would Aldebaran had done it? IDK, but Aioros certainly could, and that's quite a feat.

By the way, as Aiolos was defeated by Shura, you could say that he's not THAT strong as a GS.

I said if the other saints were in a similar circumstance, so let's say they're all are around 14-5 years old or at an age where they have at least the physique to fight properly. Most of the times when the saving baby Athena feat was mentoned, it's mostly to emphasise on Aioros loyalty or "justice" rather than his strenght. My point was that a lot of other main saint characters (the main bronzes, other gold saints) would have done the same were they placed in that situation. So what happens is that this would undermines Aioros supposingly unique and most important trait of being loyal or the most royal.

However, this is a matter of 'would they had done it?', what you are talking about is 'would they had suceeded?' and that's just going back to who's the strongest, so if you want feel free to take it back to that thread, but this is more about his traits as a character rather than his strength as a fighter.

Seiya

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2015, 08:05:37 AM »
Well I am surprised that one ever discussed these...even tho I did mention them before in separate posts there some questions that might have troubled us all tho two of them can be explained (even if it's not correct yet, still makes more sense since we were not given much).

- Aioros was fatally injured by Saga and not by Shura.

I think it makes more sense that Saga attacked him on the back while he was escaping, Shura might have lied and here's why I think that. If Shura did give that wound to Aioros then it wouldn't make sense for Athena to still be alive.  Shura's specialty was slice and dice...that was not the case of Aioros.  Shura said that he was the one that killed him, yet there was no flashback and that was an important event...I wouldn't leave it without a something. I don't think he left him for dead and not to mention that he let Athena lived... although it could be that he couldn't kill a baby ( as the most proud of all) however it just doesn't add up. That's just my two cents.   

- Camus was following Saga even tho his name was not mentioned.

This is a pretty simple explanation. Camus knew that Saga didn't disappear 13 years ago because he asked the Gemini Saint to teleport Hyoga to the Libra Temple. So to put it simply.. Deathmask, Shura, Camus and Aphrodite were Saga's followers. You can argue about that but there's no other explanation.


- Saga's Cosmo

Ok so...how on Earth no one from the remaining Gold Saints did not identify Saga's Cosmo for 13 years? Mu sensed it the minute he returned to the Sanctuary. Ok so maybe Aldebaran, Aioria and Milo couldn't detect him but what about Shaka who is supposed to have a greater insight from all the rest? even he was pretty much in shock when Mu revealed that Saga was the Pope. Well that could mean that Shaka is not that bright and that he is a walking encyclopedia...or that was just a miss from the author himself.

Also I would really love to know how (we know only the why) Deathmask and the others join Saga but I guess we can't have everything now...can we?

topaz989

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2015, 08:14:55 AM »
...
- Saga's Cosmo

Ok so...how on Earth no one from the remaining Gold Saints did not identify Saga's Cosmo for 13 years? Mu sensed it the minute he returned to the Sanctuary. Ok so maybe Aldebaran, Aioria and Milo couldn't detect him but what about Shaka who is supposed to have a greater insight from all the rest? even he was pretty much in shock when Mu revealed that Saga was the Pope. Well that could mean that Shaka is not that bright and that he is a walking encyclopedia...or that was just a miss from the author himself.

Also I would really love to know how (we know only the why) Deathmask and the others join Saga but I guess we can't have everything now...can we?

Maybe the Pope's helmet and mask shielded his cosmos like how Magneto's helmet shields Xavier's telepathy?
We know the Saints can tell whose cosmos is whose, and if the Pope's cosmos was easily readible, it would defeat the purpose of him even having a secret identity.
Mu probably figured out the Pope wasn't his Master as easily as any of us would if one of family members were killed and the murderer tried to imitate their voice on a telephone. It doesn't matter how good they are, they won't fool us.

Niello

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2015, 09:41:31 AM »
1. Aioros was fatally injured by Saga and not by Shura.

I think it makes more sense that Saga attacked him on the back while he was escaping, Shura might have lied and here's why I think that. If Shura did give that wound to Aioros then it wouldn't make sense for Athena to still be alive.  Shura's specialty was slice and dice...that was not the case of Aioros.  Shura said that he was the one that killed him, yet there was no flashback and that was an important event...I wouldn't leave it without a something. I don't think he left him for dead and not to mention that he let Athena lived... although it could be that he couldn't kill a baby ( as the most proud of all) however it just doesn't add up. That's just my two cents.   

2. Camus was following Saga even tho his name was not mentioned.

This is a pretty simple explanation. Camus knew that Saga didn't disappear 13 years ago because he asked the Gemini Saint to teleport Hyoga to the Libra Temple. So to put it simply.. Deathmask, Shura, Camus and Aphrodite were Saga's followers. You can argue about that but there's no other explanation.


3. Saga's Cosmo

Ok so...how on Earth no one from the remaining Gold Saints did not identify Saga's Cosmo for 13 years? Mu sensed it the minute he returned to the Sanctuary. Ok so maybe Aldebaran, Aioria and Milo couldn't detect him but what about Shaka who is supposed to have a greater insight from all the rest? even he was pretty much in shock when Mu revealed that Saga was the Pope. Well that could mean that Shaka is not that bright and that he is a walking encyclopedia...or that was just a miss from the author himself.

Also I would really love to know how (we know only the why) Deathmask and the others join Saga but I guess we can't have everything now...can we?

1. Why would the flashback for Shura confrontation with Aioros be so important that without it, it would imply that Shura lied? What would it add to the manga? I really don't think that make sense, especially if you consider the fact that there are so many other (more important) things that's never even explained or mentioned let alone an actual flashback. You even said it yourself, why weren't we shown why so many gold saints chose to follow Saga? That should be more important than the Shura/Aioros flashback, or even more mysterious, why was Shion able to realise the darkness within Saga and stopped Saga from being his sucessor and yet let Deathmask became the Cancer saint when his sadistic nature was right on the surface? Or if Deathmask got that personality afterward what caused it?

Maybe it's not that Shura let Athena live, don't forget that Shura didn't kill Aioros on the spot. He probably injured Aioros but Aioros was able to escape, and then died of blood loss afterward when he managed to put Athena in Kido's care.

2. Did stated directly that Camus asked Saga to do that? I thought  Camus pulled Hyouga out of there himself? Even if that's not the case, Camus could just ask "the pope" that he wanted to deal with his student himself. It doesn't necessarily mean that Camus need to know of the real identity.

3. Well...since there's supposingly Saga and the evil spirit, it's pretty safe to assume that there are two different cosmos. If we take the explanation that the real Saga was supposingly a kind-hearted person to be accurate. Then his real cosmo could be pretty similar to Athena, and since his cosmo is huge and powerful, it could be enough to fool people that has never sensed the real Athena's cosmo (which was everyone in the Sanctuary, gold saints included).

As for the pope's cosmo...he's just sitting there on the throne and it's not like the guy had any need to fight a battle with anyone. Therefore there's no need to raise his cosmo. That could be what happened with Shion. As for when Saga took control, the good Saga might had the need to release his cosmo to fight off the evil spirit. The cosmo could be then be mistaken as Athena's, as mentioned. Then when the evil spirit fought back to take control, it could be mistaken as the pope's. Just my little theory.

Although if you want the truth I'm almost 100% sure that Kuru didn't think about it.

AriesMu188

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2015, 10:02:13 AM »
1. In the manga, there is no Shura flashback. It just Shura claiming he half-killed Aiolos to Shiryu. Like I said before, Masami is probably hiding tons of shit about the whole 13 years ago shit, not just about Aiolos and stuff.

2. Camus don't need to know shit about Saga. He was teaching Hyoga a lesson. For example I'm teaching my student how to fix stuff, I'm not going to do it for him. I might even pretend to be something I'm not, and it doesn't mean I'm an evil bastard or supporting an evil bastard... :P

3. The Shaka thing is a huge plot hole. My theory is that it's a setup for something else...

Seiya

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2015, 11:28:51 AM »
1. Why would the flashback for Shura confrontation with Aioros be so important that without it, it would imply that Shura lied? What would it add to the manga? I really don't think that make sense, especially if you consider the fact that there are so many other (more important) things that's never even explained or mentioned let alone an actual flashback. You even said it yourself, why weren't we shown why so many gold saints chose to follow Saga? That should be more important than the Shura/Aioros flashback, or even more mysterious, why was Shion able to realise the darkness within Saga and stopped Saga from being his sucessor and yet let Deathmask became the Cancer saint when his sadistic nature was right on the surface? Or if Deathmask got that personality afterward what caused it?

Maybe it's not that Shura let Athena live, don't forget that Shura didn't kill Aioros on the spot. He probably injured Aioros but Aioros was able to escape, and then died of blood loss afterward when he managed to put Athena in Kido's care.

2. Did stated directly that Camus asked Saga to do that? I thought  Camus pulled Hyouga out of there himself? Even if that's not the case, Camus could just ask "the pope" that he wanted to deal with his student himself. It doesn't necessarily mean that Camus need to know of the real identity.

3. Well...since there's supposingly Saga and the evil spirit, it's pretty safe to assume that there are two different cosmos. If we take the explanation that the real Saga was supposingly a kind-hearted person to be accurate. Then his real cosmo could be pretty similar to Athena, and since his cosmo is huge and powerful, it could be enough to fool people that has never sensed the real Athena's cosmo (which was everyone in the Sanctuary, gold saints included).

As for the pope's cosmo...he's just sitting there on the throne and it's not like the guy had any need to fight a battle with anyone. Therefore there's no need to raise his cosmo. That could be what happened with Shion. As for when Saga took control, the good Saga might had the need to release his cosmo to fight off the evil spirit. The cosmo could be then be mistaken as Athena's, as mentioned. Then when the evil spirit fought back to take control, it could be mistaken as the pope's. Just my little theory.

Although if you want the truth I'm almost 100% sure that Kuru didn't think about it.

1. It is an important thing yes, if his mission was to eliminate both then it wasn't a success. He managed to finish a Saint but he didn't kill Athena who was only a baby. It just doesn't add up.

2. Not directly but he was waiting for Hyoga at the Libra Temple and that is very suspicious..If he knows that the Pope can do that technique then 1+1=2. And I do believe that Camus requested it otherwise why would he drop him in the Libra Temple instead just killing him? Also Aquarius to Libra kinda far.. so even if he did sense his Cosmo and walked all the way to Libra..would have taken waay more time..again he was there waiting.. Too convenient.

3. Still Mu said that he sensed the missing Gemini Saint Cosmo the minute he returned to the Sanctuary ( Saga was not doing anything at that moment if I am not mistaken).. as for not doing anything so can't be detected..remember the Saints have sense a few times fading Cosmo of their comrades but anyway the point is Mu sensed him Shaka did not.

Niello

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2015, 09:16:38 PM »
1. It is an important thing yes, if his mission was to eliminate both then it wasn't a success. He managed to finish a Saint but he didn't kill Athena who was only a baby. It just doesn't add up.

2. Not directly but he was waiting for Hyoga at the Libra Temple and that is very suspicious..If he knows that the Pope can do that technique then 1+1=2. And I do believe that Camus requested it otherwise why would he drop him in the Libra Temple instead just killing him? Also Aquarius to Libra kinda far.. so even if he did sense his Cosmo and walked all the way to Libra..would have taken waay more time..again he was there waiting.. Too convenient.

3. Still Mu said that he sensed the missing Gemini Saint Cosmo the minute he returned to the Sanctuary ( Saga was not doing anything at that moment if I am not mistaken).. as for not doing anything so can't be detected..remember the Saints have sense a few times fading Cosmo of their comrades but anyway the point is Mu sensed him Shaka did not.

1. Like I said, there's a different between seriously injuring someone and finishing him off, Shura clearly did the former. Aioros has clearly managed to escape.

2. Even if Camus did know the technique, why would it suggest that he know he should be waiting at the Libra temple (with the convenient plot device a.k.a. the Libra weapons)? Think about it. Another Dimension is the move that just let the opponent drift in an alternate space. There's nothing to suggest that Hyouga could only be pulled out of AD just at the Libra temple and not Aquarius. So that means that there's a reason why it's Libra temple.

How about we consider both scenarios (oh dear, I'm definitely starting to over-analyse it, well...whatever xD)

If Camus did made an arrangement with Saga knowingly, they why wouldn't Saga just drop him off at the Aquarius temple? If he did it would be easier for Camus, but it at the same time riskier for himself, as he would be basically giving Hyouga a free ride almost to the finish line. So, if by chance Hyouga could overcome Camus or if Camus decided to betray, then it would be bad for the evil Saga. Libra temple makes sense. But alternatively Saga, as the unidentified pope, could just tell Camus to go wait at the Libra temple as he will drop Hyouga off there.

 If instead, Saga didn't know about it and Camus did it on his own, then Camus wouldn't want the pope to know that he saved Hyouga from an attack that got rid of him. He could have sensed Hyouga, and so, to avoid being notice he went to an empty temple instead. It could also be that because Camus wanted to deal with Hyouga personally, he didn't want to wait at his own temple because hyouga might simply not survive to go that far in. Then only after that sensed his student in AD. This could also work with or without knowing pope's identity.

Actually if Saga knew that he could use his technique to transport people throught the temples why didn't he do it in Hades arc? If he didn't why didn't Camus told him?

3. We don't know what Saga was doing when Mu returned, it was never shown...probably bathing but that's beside the point :P. Also, since Mu probably know Shion's cosmo as well as Saori's (since they have met), he could have used it to compare the cosmos. In that case, it's possible that he's the only gold saint who know both the real pope's and Athena's cosmos so he can easily compare it to Saga's two cosmo, which would also give him the clue to Saga double personalities. This would also fix that thing about Shaka to a certain degree...I think.

Seiya

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Re: I'm surprised that no one is discussing this
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2015, 11:42:41 PM »
1. That's what I am trying to say, why would he take the risk and let them escape? it is really not easy to escape a Clothed Gold Saint...was he or was he not injured on the back? so here's what I think happened. Saga injured him while he was escaping the room with baby Athena in his arms. He got the Sagittarius Cloth and fled from the Sanctuary.

Of course there's the other scenario...Saga did not have the time to attack him...little Shura (10 years old?) tried to stop him with Excalibur...perhaps his attack wasn't matured enough( that's not really an excuse if you ask me) that he only managed to severely wound him. Then Aioros got the Sagittarius Cloth and left the Sanctuary. No matter how I see it this should be the sequence of the events otherwise it doesn't explain why he was gravely injured while having the Pandora Box on his back.  Still doesn't add up.

2. I can explain all that. Camus requested to drop him at the Libra Temple as it was an empty Temple to...reason with his student with no  interference. Don't forget Hyoga was sent as  the assassin of the Bronze. It's been a while that I have read the manga but I think he tried to get him back on his side and when he refused he encased him in the Freezing Coffin.  Like you said Aquarius Temple is pretty near the end so Libra was the best choice. Not to mention that Masami would never hurry things up unless he was going to kill Hyoga. Plus the fight between student and Master to be (Milo). Same reason he didn't use the Sagittarius Temple.

We don't really know how Another Dimension works, I mean for all we know if the caster can control it if he is using himself too. We know that you can't teleport in, out of the Sanctuary or between the Temples but a technique bypasses that as it is meant for attacking and not for porting people.. So maybe that's why he couldn't use it at the Hades Arc...or it is a plot hole.

3. Hmm ok but that still doesn't say how was Mu able to detect Athena's Cosmo and the others could not. Doesn't explain why Aioria thought that Saori was an impostor until she showed her terrifying but warm Cosmo to him. If anything...Aioria was the very first Saint (with Seiya) that witnessed Athena's Cosmo. Mu met her as Saori.

I think I am gonna go with Mu-san on this...that is a plot hole.