Author Topic: Lyra Orphe's power  (Read 3016 times)

Cancer Cadaver

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Lyra Orphe's power
« on: October 01, 2013, 01:41:44 PM »
So I was searching across the SS Wiki, and I noticed this in the article on Orphe.
"In the Official Encyclopedia, Orphée is cited as a mighty warrior whose power may also equal all of Hades' 3 Judges. "
So can someone back up this entry, or is it just typical wiki inaccuracy? If this is actually present in one of the guidebooks, it'd certainly be interesting.

AriesMu188

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2013, 02:53:03 PM »
That's mis-info. What it should say is Orphee has a power above Gold...

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2013, 03:02:47 PM »
which in turn was also misleading, since he was one-shot by wyvern.
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AriesMu188

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2013, 03:35:22 PM »
Wait wait, 2 things ;):

1) The above Gold statement is in the Encyclopedia and the manga

2) Yes he did get seriously wounded by Rhada but he wasn't looking. And he did purposely sacrifice himself holding Rhada still so Seiya can Ryusei Ken the dude.

If it was a straight up fight, it could be interesting...

Context is everything in Seiya...

Before Hades ch, everybody I knew thought Mu was the weakest dude ever... You get my point... :)

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 09:49:29 AM »
hahaha, orphee did manage to awaken the 8th sense by himself and walked into hell. he did it without athena blood too.

wait wait wait, who thought mu was a weakling???
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Canthre

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 10:46:47 AM »
I don't remember anyone saying that Mu is the weakest Gold Saint. If anything, his non-violent attitude is definately used for the sake of 'OMG he's a kickass!' image by Kuru :)
Was Orphee really that strong? He seems to awaken to 8th sense (whatever it truly is, and whatever it's doing) and has some handy techniques as well some brain cells, but really - nothing spectacular :P

Cancer Cadaver

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #6 on: October 03, 2013, 02:07:40 PM »
which in turn was also misleading, since he was one-shot by wyvern.
As already stated, that was through a surprise attack, which can always be effective (eg. Saga one-shotting Shion). Not only that, but it's made apparent that the 3 Judges hold power far above the Gold Saints, and the Lyra Cloth isn't as durable as a Gold Cloth. Even with Orphe's strength being above the Golds, a surprise attack from someone such as Rhadamanthys is going to be effective.
Plus, Orphe wasn't exactly one-shotted. He was still able to contain Rhadamanthys with his Stringer Fine, and cause problems that the combined damage of that and Seiya's Ryuseiken were able to weaken Wyvern down to a level where Kanon could've killed him if not for Minos and Aeacus' intervention.

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #7 on: October 03, 2013, 02:32:02 PM »
As already stated, that was through a surprise attack, which can always be effective (eg. Saga one-shotting Shion). Not only that, but it's made apparent that the 3 Judges hold power far above the Gold Saints, and the Lyra Cloth isn't as durable as a Gold Cloth. Even with Orphe's strength being above the Golds, a surprise attack from someone such as Rhadamanthys is going to be effective.
Plus, Orphe wasn't exactly one-shotted. He was still able to contain Rhadamanthys with his Stringer Fine, and cause problems that the combined damage of that and Seiya's Ryuseiken were able to weaken Wyvern down to a level where Kanon could've killed him if not for Minos and Aeacus' intervention.

i really dont know if orphee is actually stronger than all gold saints, but definitely stronger than deathmask and aphrodite. i agree with ya on the silver cloth not havin higher defense than gold clothes and the surprise attack part, but i disagree on the 3 judges being far more powerful than a gold saint.

kanon was shown to be more powerful than rhada at their first encounter, where he really one-shot lune in the first prison. if the spectres didnt show up, rhada is dead on that spot. the stringer fine and mule-seiken didnt bring down his power level, he was wounded by them. no way in hell rhada was brought down to a level after that combo. how can the judges be called "far above" a gold saint when aiacos and minos were both defeated, i would say rather easily, by bronze saints.

are we gonna start a debate on whether the fab5 wearin their v3 bronze clothes are stronger than the likes of mu, shaka, kanon, or douko?
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AriesMu188

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #8 on: October 03, 2013, 02:42:18 PM »
hahaha, orphee did manage to awaken the 8th sense by himself and walked into hell. he did it without athena blood too.

wait wait wait, who thought mu was a weakling???

I'm saying the people in my high school. They all thought Mu was weak... They never read Hades Ch... ;)

Cancer Cadaver

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2013, 08:37:34 AM »
i really dont know if orphee is actually stronger than all gold saints, but definitely stronger than deathmask and aphrodite. i agree with ya on the silver cloth not havin higher defense than gold clothes and the surprise attack part, but i disagree on the 3 judges being far more powerful than a gold saint.
kanon was shown to be more powerful than rhada at their first encounter, where he really one-shot lune in the first prison. if the spectres didnt show up, rhada is dead on that spot. the stringer fine and mule-seiken didnt bring down his power level, he was wounded by them. no way in hell rhada was brought down to a level after that combo. how can the judges be called "far above" a gold saint when aiacos and minos were both defeated, i would say rather easily, by bronze saints.
Statements from the manga and guidebooks already confirm Orphe's superiority.
Kanon wasn't stronger than Rhadamanthys. He was being beaten by the judge until he managed to hit him with the Genro Maoken, and it's pretty obvious that Orphe and Seiya's attacks severely weakened him, especially when he even stated so himself. After all, how can the disproven "Same Attack Never Works Twice" statement back up Kanon getting overpowered by Rhadamanthys' Greatest Caution, yet stop it with one hand in their rematch?
Aeacus was defeated by Ikki after Ikki had burnt his cosmo to new heights due to his resolve to reunite with Shun, in other words, after a large power up. The exact same way the Bronzes overpowered the Gold Saints and Marina Generals. You also seem to be forgetting that Hyoga didn't defeat Minos, who even destroyed the Freezing Coffin variation that was still stated by Hyoga to be something even several Gold Saints couldn't destroy. All Hyoga managed to do to Minos was some light damage with the Aurora Execution.

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2013, 09:51:28 AM »
Statements from the manga and guidebooks already confirm Orphe's superiority.
Kanon wasn't stronger than Rhadamanthys. He was being beaten by the judge until he managed to hit him with the Genro Maoken, and it's pretty obvious that Orphe and Seiya's attacks severely weakened him, especially when he even stated so himself. After all, how can the disproven "Same Attack Never Works Twice" statement back up Kanon getting overpowered by Rhadamanthys' Greatest Caution, yet stop it with one hand in their rematch?
Aeacus was defeated by Ikki after Ikki had burnt his cosmo to new heights due to his resolve to reunite with Shun, in other words, after a large power up. The exact same way the Bronzes overpowered the Gold Saints and Marina Generals. You also seem to be forgetting that Hyoga didn't defeat Minos, who even destroyed the Freezing Coffin variation that was still stated by Hyoga to be something even several Gold Saints couldn't destroy. All Hyoga managed to do to Minos was some light damage with the Aurora Execution.

er... are we readin the same manga? chapter 101: kanon joins the battle. kanon/badassmanthys' first meeting on the bridge: badassmanthys hit him with a physical attack, then a greatest caution, sent kanon crashin into the background pillar, then boom, outta nowhere, kanon effortlessly hit him with a nerve strike that stunned rhada. kanon stated that it was a simple nerve strike, only intended to stun, "you will be fine after a moment, but THIS, is the real genro maoken." the only compliment that kanon gave was "no wonder he [badassmanthys] is called one of the 3 judges." if anythin, kanon was playin possum with rhada cus rhada was hit with a nerve strike very, very effortlessly by kanon after being hit with a greatest caution. if kanon was "overpowered" by the judge, he wouldnt be able to get up after the greatest caution, no? kanon being overpowered by both aiacos and minos, yes, that was "overpowered" when two double teamed him. if the minor spectres didnt show up, rhada would be hit by the maoken and go after hades. second meeting: kanon blockin greatest caution with one hand, well, rhada is a one trick pony and kanon saw through it the first time.

i doubt aiacos' level as well. yes, ikki is one badass mofo. but look at it like this, when ikki appeared standin between the judges, kanon told him about shun bein hades, ikki stands around wondering the usual yaddy yaddy ya, aiacos hit him from behind (which shredded his tights, usually means some damage is done), ikki got up and knocked off his mask. that alone says aiacos is not as bad as he's supposed to be.

do you honestly believe that hyouga's freezing coffin is on the same level as camus'? camus' halfassed diamond dust sent mu flying in the beginning of the hades chapter, hyoga's to any gold saint was, ay... look at the history for yourself first.
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Cancer Cadaver

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2013, 08:29:27 AM »
er... are we readin the same manga? chapter 101: kanon joins the battle. kanon/badassmanthys' first meeting on the bridge: badassmanthys hit him with a physical attack, then a greatest caution, sent kanon crashin into the background pillar, then boom, outta nowhere, kanon effortlessly hit him with a nerve strike that stunned rhada. kanon stated that it was a simple nerve strike, only intended to stun, "you will be fine after a moment, but THIS, is the real genro maoken." the only compliment that kanon gave was "no wonder he [badassmanthys] is called one of the 3 judges." if anythin, kanon was playin possum with rhada cus rhada was hit with a nerve strike very, very effortlessly by kanon after being hit with a greatest caution. if kanon was "overpowered" by the judge, he wouldnt be able to get up after the greatest caution, no? kanon being overpowered by both aiacos and minos, yes, that was "overpowered" when two double teamed him. if the minor spectres didnt show up, rhada would be hit by the maoken and go after hades. second meeting: kanon blockin greatest caution with one hand, well, rhada is a one trick pony and kanon saw through it the first time.
i doubt aiacos' level as well. yes, ikki is one badass mofo. but look at it like this, when ikki appeared standin between the judges, kanon told him about shun bein hades, ikki stands around wondering the usual yaddy yaddy ya, aiacos hit him from behind (which shredded his tights, usually means some damage is done), ikki got up and knocked off his mask. that alone says aiacos is not as bad as he's supposed to be.
do you honestly believe that hyouga's freezing coffin is on the same level as camus'? camus' halfassed diamond dust sent mu flying in the beginning of the hades chapter, hyoga's to any gold saint was, ay... look at the history for yourself first.
You do realise how durable a Gold Cloth is, don't you? Such a cloth could withstand attacks from Poseidon, so of course Kanon would be able to survive a Greatest Caution. The difference between Kanon's durability with and without his cloth is shown perfectly by him taking severe damage from the same attack after removing his cloth. Also, the Genro Maoken dosen't require a larger amount of effort or charging to do, so saying Kanon did so "effortlessly" isn't fully correct.
Aeacus noted that Kanon would've died quickly had Rhadamanthys not intervened, and such is never blatantly contradicted. Even before the battle started, Ikki already had some kind of strong resolve, made evident by the intensity of his cosmo being enough to shock Pandora when she sensed it. Ikki certainly wasn't on the same level he was when Kanon overpowered him in the previous arc.
You seem to be forgetting that Hyoga had already surpassed Camus' level of frozen air during their battle, with Camus admitting the gap to be large when noting that Hyoga had "far surpassed" him. Plus, Hyoga even stated himself that even though it was a variation of the Freezing Coffin, it was still at a level where not even several Gold Saints could destroy it. Either you're saying that Minos has tenfold the power of Rhadamanthys and Aeacus, or you're underestimating the judges' full capabilities.

There's then the fact that the judges are the most powerful Specters, yet Gordon was able to destroy Shiryu's Excalibur, which evident from the Poseidon Arc, should be in no way inferior to Shura's (other than being limited to one limb). Plus, as little as non-canon material is worth, even that makes it evident that a Judge is far above the average Gold Saint as shown in TLC, as are even some of Rhadamanthys' elite.

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2013, 09:57:07 AM »
There's then the fact that the judges are the most powerful Specters, yet Gordon was able to destroy Shiryu's Excalibur, which evident from the Poseidon Arc, should be in no way inferior to Shura's (other than being limited to one limb). Plus, as little as non-canon material is worth, even that makes it evident that a Judge is far above the average Gold Saint as shown in TLC, as are even some of Rhadamanthys' elite.

gold cloth part, hell yea it is durable. but answer me one thing: what did kanon look like after he hit the nerve strike on rhada? did he look tired (with pantings and puffings like ha- ha- ハ- ハ-) or on one knee like he did after ikki helped him? he got up pretty fast and destroyed the 6 spectres pretty easily. please note that he never hit rhada with the genro maoken. i m in no way sayin that the judges are weaker than the gold saints, but "far above" was an overstatement.

camus mentioned that hyoga surpassed him, yup he did. did you forget that hyoga was near death and unconcious when he did it? were the fab5's constnatly fightin on a steady 7th sense level? if they were, the marinas would had went down like butter. shiryu had to do his stripper routine, which means dragon, concentrate, concentrate, 7th sense, in order to break chrysnor's lance. the first halfassed one didnt work on the lance, remember? his excalibur was halfass when he took on queen and gordon. if you dont think it is halfass, queen's head woulda fall off when he hit him, no? plus the dude was injured by the time gordon comes with a full on axe. so the fab5s were not fighting on a steady 7th sense level like the gold saints can do normally. by hades chapter, new cloth + experience defintely made them stronger. i really doubt hyoga's freezin coffin on minos was the same or close to camus'. after all, he didnt do no swan dance, or something like shiryu's stripper routine, so it is rather halfass. BTW, if the freezin coffin is really that strong even combined gold saints cannot destroy it, why the hell do you do it especially shiryu is still on the other side???

i m not even gonna throw in LC golds/judges but if you wanna throw in LC gold saints, the judges would pretty much be like butter if aspros comes out. aspros killed a GOD in his gemini surplice!!! god-badassmanthys, omg, why? sisyphos, stupid battle...
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Canthre

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2013, 11:15:34 AM »
Just a quick butt-in:

1. I think Kanon would have lost the battle against the Three Judges, but honestly? It's really 3 vs 1, it's not this surprising. He'd beat Rhadamanthys in a fair battle, and they seemed close in level to me.

2. Dunno. Hyoga so clearly surpassing Camus in Sanctuary was already a secret to me. Ah, well, whatever.

3. Except of Rhadamanthys no Judge was really that overpowered. They comparable to Gold Saints. Strong, indeed, but definately stronger? Nah. As I said, except for the Wyvern of course. But he was so overpowered that his battle against Regulus WTF factor is like, infinite. And I don't have words for surviving Zodiac Exclamation...

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Re: Lyra Orphe's power
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2013, 01:05:16 PM »
3. Except of Rhadamanthys no Judge was really that overpowered. They comparable to Gold Saints. Strong, indeed, but definately stronger? Nah. As I said, except for the Wyvern of course. But he was so overpowered that his battle against Regulus WTF factor is like, infinite. And I don't have words for surviving Zodiac Exclamation...

UGH, Leo vs Wyvern was the only part of TLC I truly hated. Seemed more like something Tite Kubo would have done(For those unaware, he is the creator of Bleach, and is known for pissing off readers by showing characters evolve and investing many chapters in showing them getting stronger, to suddenly decide the enemies are stronger and just survive everything).

Back on the main topic: I figure Lyra is about as strong as Shaka, who is arguably the strongest of the 20th century saints(Libra might be stronger....if we had ever seen him really fight). Lyra's main weakness seems to be his defense, and the fact his lyre is the source of his techniques. Without that, he's useless. Does have any defensive techniques in the manga that they cut for the OVAs? In a one-on-one against Shaka, I'd say he lose.

Oh, and I think Kanon would *not* have survived against all three Judges. He killed Garuda without too much effort, but Minos and his "Cosmic Marionette" would have been a serious problem. Hell, I doubt Saga would have won.