Author Topic: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan  (Read 4313 times)

GVmanX

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2013, 02:21:08 PM »
Tomino has a few things to say on Attack on Titan:  http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2013-12-03/gundam-creator-tomino-praises-and-criticizes-attack-on-titan-manga

I can't say I disagree with him.

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #16 on: December 04, 2013, 01:44:35 PM »
I can't say I agree.

As if design is the main part of SnK.
Design is great, but nowadays it tends to overcome stories and literally stifle the plot.
Here, the design is not too invasive, so people can concentrate on the story. I dare say it invites to take care of the story.

According to this great man, a good story is a simple, plain one. Sorry, but some people like elaborated and unusual stories.
Ok, I have difficulties to classify SnK as a shonen, it has fare more prerequisites for seinen.
Really, something that is not just a list of fightings and level-ups, and fightings, and level-ups,... No, please! We finally have something clever!! The quality of a manga is not JUST measured by the number of readers. I do read and like Bleach, but I won't call it the greatest manga of the world. Pretty images, catching characters with pretty cute flower pots girlfriends, long-time feud, I'm fed up with it!

Yes, the graphic art can be better, but I think it's showing exactly in what world the characters are : a poor, desolated and pathetic world, confined in a secluded world with no real future.
Do you really think things would have been that realistic in a style of Oda or Kishimoto?

Design has its meaning, and this man seems to forget it for the idea to sell the most manga as possible.

He doesn't want to read it? Come on! He's critisizing something he didn't read in fact! What a proof of honesty.
And being pornographic... Most shonens are far more provocative. Fairy Tail anyone?

And in any case, comparing a manga to One Piece is, by definition, being biased. One Piece is an OVNI in the manga world. No comparison possible.
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Raiden [雷電]

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2013, 02:57:30 PM »
I actually have to say that the manga's art style is horrible. It's sketchy at best and all the characters look the same. When it comes to "rough and realistic" art, I'd say Shuichi Shigeno's Initial D looks a whole lot better. And don't get me started on Blade of the Immortal - if you compare THAT thing's art and plot to Shingeki, the latter will inevitably lose. See here for an example. http://www.mangahere.com/manga/blade_of_the_immortal/v01/c002/66.html

...I can't stop giggling at SnK fans now, honestly. Their reactions to Tomino are the exact same as Twilight fans when Stephen King bashed their series - a more experienced and famous author bashes a new and hyped work; cue fandom throwing a bitchfit and insulting the author back.

At least the art and characters look better in the anime version of SnK. ...I actually think the manga looks worse than Kurumada's art does.



GVmanX

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2013, 05:40:59 PM »
He doesn't want to read it? Come on! He's critisizing something he didn't read in fact! What a proof of honesty.
And being pornographic... Most shonens are far more provocative. Fairy Tail anyone?

He never said he didn't read it; he only said he doesn't want to.  As for pornographic, I think he meant it in the sense of violence porn.

Quote
And in any case, comparing a manga to One Piece is, by definition, being biased. One Piece is an OVNI in the manga world. No comparison possible.

A what?  And I doubt if you look up the definition of biased of biased in the dictionary, you'll see comparisons to One Piece.  I don't even know what you mean by that.

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2013, 12:11:05 PM »
I think you misunderstood something : I never said the design was great. It's purely horrible, especially he has no capabilities with facial expressions. He's capable, his cover arts are great, and he has flair for landscapes, so it's pretty weird that he's that bad for the rest.

BUT! There's a but.

Design is not something that should be necessarily pretty. It's something that should be ADAPTED!!
You can't have, regarding to the subject, having a design like Naruto or Fairy Tail. Maybe something like Asano style, thought.
This is why I disagree with Tomino, who seems to consider a design should be a sexy catching one.
Second, I'm repeating himself, but the design SHOULD NOT being the most important part of a manga. In general a pretty excellent design nowadays is used to hide the poor quality of the plot. Like Kuroshitsuji, who's definitively odd to me, seems it's alternating short interesting details, and long stupid and useless parts >>;
With a crappy design like in SnK, you have to concentrate on the plot. Because, no, you don't know how it's will end, because currently, if you read the manga, you should know that even within the heroes, they are people who's not sure the Titans are enemies...

I was against THIS INTERVIEW ONLY, not about criticizing SnK in general Indeed, there's flaws in this manga. It's not perfect.
Tomino's argument are poor, to my point of view.
So, Raiden, comparing me to a no-brain-Twilight fan, it's insulting. I don't see where it's funny to expose its own point of view.
I won't be agree with you just like that. Everyone has the right to have his opinion, and mine is Tomino didn't really understand SnK and it's a pity.

Actually, I was sad and deceived because I believed Tomino was a great man, and here I don't understand his comments :/
Reducing the whole work on a manga to JUST a detail like the source of inspiration of a manga seems to me pretty light. I'm sure he is far more clever than that. And I don't see their words as the encouraging type to a young mangaka.
Or, there's another hypothesis : the journalist presented just a part of the interview. It's still possible. Then the journalist is to blame.

@ GVmaxX :
I didn't understand that way, and you're right ^^

First of all : In France, SnK tends to be categorized as horror dystopia shonen manga. Not just a regular one. It explains my position about the scenery.

Indeed it's a violent manga. But that's because the phenomenon is violent. How do you want to describe the violence of a battle scene if you don't have violent image? The aim of SnK is not the fight by itself. But the suffering in a desolated and harsh world. Everything in this manga is about feeling, expressions, mentality, choice in life. But indeed it's making it a more complicated work that a pure "beat-them-all" type manga.
So, yeah, Tomino is right, there's "violence porn". But condemning it let me think he didn't understand the manga. So It might be the reason he's so harsh with SnK in general. On the other hand, I can understand elders don't really want to see it in a manga. Because they do know what Isayama want to say, and prefer letting the youth leaving in a nice and peaceful world.

About the biased part : Sorry xD Was some frenchy mix of words ^^;
I wanted to say it's a bit unfair, since One Piece is a manga that is pretty unique and can hardly be compared to others. It obeys to his owns rules in term of design, character development (don't forget the heroes are actually bad guys, and the manga promotes bad actions like drinking alcohol, smoking, stealing,... when still under-aged xD), subjects (awfully large : politics, adventures, economy, human rights,...).
It doesn't mean it's the greatest manga of the world (even if I do think so, but that's personal point of view :P ), it's just saying it's pretty difficult to compare two mangas like OP and SnK who totally different in almost everything ^^;
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GVmanX

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2013, 12:44:38 PM »
I think you misunderstood something : I never said the design was great. It's purely horrible, especially he has no capabilities with facial expressions. He's capable, his cover arts are great, and he has flair for landscapes, so it's pretty weird that he's that bad for the rest.

BUT! There's a but.

Design is not something that should be necessarily pretty. It's something that should be ADAPTED!!
You can't have, regarding to the subject, having a design like Naruto or Fairy Tail. Maybe something like Asano style, thought.
This is why I disagree with Tomino, who seems to consider a design should be a sexy catching one.
Second, I'm repeating himself, but the design SHOULD NOT being the most important part of a manga. In general a pretty excellent design nowadays is used to hide the poor quality of the plot. Like Kuroshitsuji, who's definitively odd to me, seems it's alternating short interesting details, and long stupid and useless parts >>;
With a crappy design like in SnK, you have to concentrate on the plot. Because, no, you don't know how it's will end, because currently, if you read the manga, you should know that even within the heroes, they are people who's not sure the Titans are enemies...

I don't know how much Isayama's art is deliberately the way it is, though.  The Titans look great, and his buildings are pretty good.  However, his people need work bad.  I can't tell someone's gender if they have short hair, I can't tell Eren and Levi apart, and the only way I could tell Reiner and Jean apart was by Jean's hair having that dark patch in it.  It's more distracting than anything.  And I would say design is honestly 6/10ths of a manga.  Better design helps the story flow and unfold.  I guess I'm mainly talking about paneling and angles and whatnot now, but the same applies to his character art.  Granted, this is Isayama's first rodeo.  His art can only improve from here.

Quote
Actually, I was sad and deceived because I believed Tomino was a great man, and here I don't understand his comments :/
Reducing the whole work on a manga to JUST a detail like the source of inspiration of a manga seems to me pretty light. I'm sure he is far more clever than that. And I don't see their words as the encouraging type to a young mangaka.

The thing about Tomino is that he says stuff like this frequently to everyone and everything, including himself and his own works.  

Quote
@ GVmaxX :
I didn't understand that way, and you're right ^^

First of all : In France, SnK tends to be categorized as horror dystopia shonen manga. Not just a regular one. It explains my position about the scenery.

Indeed it's a violent manga. But that's because the phenomenon is violent. How do you want to describe the violence of a battle scene if you don't have violent image? The aim of SnK is not the fight by itself. But the suffering in a desolated and harsh world. Everything in this manga is about feeling, expressions, mentality, choice in life. But indeed it's making it a more complicated work that a pure "beat-them-all" type manga.
So, yeah, Tomino is right, there's "violence porn". But condemning it let me think he didn't understand the manga. So It might be the reason he's so harsh with SnK in general. On the other hand, I can understand elders don't really want to see it in a manga. Because they do know what Isayama want to say, and prefer letting the youth leaving in a nice and peaceful world.

Tomino's not as big on violence as he used to be.  After managing to conquer his depression, most of his works have been pretty happy.  That being said, I feel like SnK goes a bit overboard and tries to be too emotionally manipulative with its violence and whatnot.  

Quote
About the biased part : Sorry xD Was some frenchy mix of words ^^;

No biggie.  I've done stuff like that with Spanish before.  Language is a tricky thing; sometimes, it's hard to believe that English has borrowed so much from French, and the both of them from Latin.

Quote
I wanted to say it's a bit unfair, since One Piece is a manga that is pretty unique and can hardly be compared to others. It obeys to his owns rules in term of design, character development (don't forget the heroes are actually bad guys, and the manga promotes bad actions like drinking alcohol, smoking, stealing,... when still under-aged xD), subjects (awfully large : politics, adventures, economy, human rights,...).
It doesn't mean it's the greatest manga of the world (even if I do think so, but that's personal point of view :P ), it's just saying it's pretty difficult to compare two mangas like OP and SnK who totally different in almost everything ^^;

I think One Piece's heroes are, essentially, good guys.  Unless, by "bad guys," you mean something like how they're not exactly perfect role models, which is true.  I think that's one of One Piece's strengths, actually.  Anyway, I get what you're saying about OP and SnK being two completely different kind of works, but he has a point.  One Piece appeals to a much wider audience, and I think he's saying that Isayama is writing too much for himself and folks like himself.

Raiden [雷電]

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2013, 03:37:45 PM »
So, Raiden, comparing me to a no-brain-Twilight fan, it's insulting. I don't see where it's funny to expose its own point of view.
I won't be agree with you just like that. Everyone has the right to have his opinion, and mine is Tomino didn't really understand SnK and it's a pity.

Sorry about that misunderstanding, I didn't intend to pull you into it - I was referring more to the butthurt fanboys on AnimeNewsNetwork. They just can't seem to take criticism to their favorite little series at all. Every time someone tells them their series sucks and gives a few valid points, they start screaming like fishwives. They actually said that Tomino and his opinion aren't relevant anymore - oh, really. I don't see them being the person who started a franchise that has been running for over three decades. He has more experience about this stuff than a few fans do. Tomino's opinion is his OPINION - people harping at him for not liking something, that's like saying freedom of speech doesn't exist. Ugh, stupid fandoms get on my nerves.

...Tomino is right about the plot in my opinion. I've already seen everything that happens in SnK - not to mention all the characters are basically military movie clichés. We've got that one guy who dies, one guy who gets his resolve from that death, the ax crazies, the idealistic guy with the nasty past, the stoic girl, the corrupted officers, a drill sergeant nasty...

*shrug* Gundam has been running for 34 years now and the franchise doesn't show signs of stopping. I don't see that happening to Shingeki no Kyojin - more than likely, it will be hyped for a while and then it dies like every other "omfg great!" show these days. Even Gurren Lagann lost its shine.



GVmanX

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2013, 04:26:30 PM »
I was referring more to the butthurt fanboys on AnimeNewsNetwork. They just can't seem to take criticism to their favorite little series at all. Every time someone tells them their series sucks and gives a few valid points, they start screaming like fishwives.

ANN forums are a comedy goldmine.  Just read this thread where folks got very mad at Erin Finnegan for making negative remarks about loli stuff:  http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=125237.  I don't know if it was this column or a later one, but folks started comparing her to Hitler and threatening her with physical violence.

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2013, 02:15:06 PM »
Yeah, people can be really stupid and fanatic about their favourite stuff >>;
I even see some people insulting a great artist, just because his fanarts of Saint Seiya were not Kurumada's style ^^;
Seriously, what about copying the mankaga's work? It's not artwork for me!

@ GVmanX : Maybe people can't like his point of view about showing the violence of feeling and events. And I didn't know for Tomino's depression, so now it's explain everything.
On the other hand, SnK is more psychological manga, it's not a regular action one. So insisting on feelings is rather logical.
But here, it's a question of opinion, so I won't criticize your point ;)

And yeah! He should improve his characters T_T
Others can make elaborate character designs while remaining simple, why not him?
But maybe it's a question of time, despite having one month for one chapter, he might have difficulties to draw better characters.
I'm a bit afraid of his capabilities of progress : he's already at volume 10 and no significant evolution :P
(I don't really care though).

@ Raiden : being full of clichés is not a problem nor a failure. I want to remain that before 2000, it was rather impossible for a manga to directly speak about war or armies or anything of this type, if it's not historical stories (and yet). So mangakas eluded the ban from editors by insisting of fantasy. I will change with the economic crisis around the end of the nineties. And the first big one in this field was Full Metal Alchemist.

So no, I don't think it's that common in Japan to have something that crude and realistic about army.
On the other hand, you're rather right as an european, because it's a subject broadly developed in movies, comics, books, etc. since the WW2.
But I do like this subject so I'm not bored by it :)


I think Isayama never plan to satisfy the mass, nor attract as much people as possible. SnK is not the type of manga that can be called "blockbuster", it's more intimate and exclusive manga. Does it make it a bad manga? No.
So, this is why I'm still against Tomino's point of view about attracting readers, because I'm not sure it's the aim.
There's too much different type of readers, and not everyone can be Oda :P
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Haldir

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2014, 09:15:46 AM »
So do anyone here actually buy the Manga, whether Japanese one, US or your local released version?

Finally started buying the Japanese Version of the Manga, starting with Vol 12 Limited Edition, thanks to the "pestering" of this SSTLC guy for a late Birthday Present =>


Waiting for the local Kinokuniya to have their usual 20% Off Discounts for Members for me to start buying the US ones.....

Then again, I might put that at the bottom of the list instead as the Japan Publisher had started releasing the Bilingual Version of the Manga this month(?) so I might just force myself to be patient and get that instead as they're released; IMHO the Japanese Mangas are a lot better quality and value-for-money than most of the US ones.  :(

GVmanX

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #25 on: January 12, 2014, 10:20:02 AM »
Yeah, manga here in the US is overpriced and we don't even get the dust jackets!  I own the Japanese volume 1 of Gunnm/Battle Angel Alita:  Last Order, and it's ridiculous how much better the paper quality is.  Granted, I understand why:  Manga doesn't sell as well here in the US to justify those low prices.

There's bilingual volumes of Attack on Titan in Japan?  That's interesting.  I know a few publishers have done this before with things like Devilman; what spurs bilingual publishing?

Anyway, I'm not putting a cent towards Attack on Titan until Isayama gets better.  I read the last three chapters, and while the first one gave me hope, the other two kinda dashed it.

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2014, 11:56:54 PM »
I still have to read this manga or see the first episode, but based on views of all of you i will give it a shot.

Okuni Sensei

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2014, 06:58:05 AM »
Isayama is a bit slow to develop story, some three chapters are rather short to judge the stuff.
In my case, I was suggested to read at least three volumes because, just one is not sufficient.
And I consider it as a flaw! XD
So, I'm recommending te same : read at least one whole volume, better is two.

On the other hand, the anime is rather excellent and one episode is sufficient to let you have a opinion.
And they rationalized the slowness of the manga x)

The story can be deceiving, because are accustomed of pretty dashing stories with full of adventures and fights. But in SnK there is a bit part for discussions and for "out-of-the-battlefield" scenes, some people are waiting. It's for a fighting story when we look at it closely. I even wonder if it's a war book, since it's finally just a support for the plot, not the main subject.
The subject is about the definitions of Human, Humanity, Ideology and Culture. Hardly about Army, War or Fight.

We had the same issue with Vinland Saga, where we earned at least two volumes about farming! Far from the conquest of England of the first ten volumes...
But again, the real questions were "what is a man?" "What is freedom?".
Most people stop reading after the tenth volume because it was rather boring. And I admit I'm not that fast to download each new chapter than ever.
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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2014, 10:41:17 AM »
This series is so popular over were i live.
or maybe that's just everywhere?

this guys opened his own anime store here, an nothing but attack on titan merch and cosplayers.

i might just watch it and see what all the fuzz is about.
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GVmanX

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Re: Shingeki no Kyojin - Attack on Titan
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2014, 12:42:29 PM »
It's huge here in central Texas.  Kodansha USA is rankin' in the big bucks.  And yeah, I'd say it's big the world over.  For now...